Season 2, Episode 1: Amy and Grace from World IA Day
Amy Espinosa first brought World IA Day to Tampa Bay in 2015. She was the Global Executive Producer for World IA Day 2017, and went on to serve as Treasurer and President of the IA Institute from 2017 - 2019. In her professional life, Amy is working on a project called The Visible City which provides a unique way to learn about and explore the history and culture of a place. .
Grace Lau is an information architect, content strategist, and taxonomist based in Los Angeles. She’s been a volunteer with World IA Day since 2016, and is serving this year as the Global Executive Producer for the event, whose parent organization has recently become a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.
Dan Klyn: Groovy. Well, why don't we begin. It's just us chickens, so far. Welcome to Amy Espinosa and Grace Lau, who are instrumental in making sure that World Information Architecture Day happens again in 2020. and this will now be the...How many years has this been a thing, Amy or Grace? Do either of you know what the count is now?
Amy Espinosa: This will be our ninth year.
Dan Klyn: I always...
Amy Espinosa: Yeah. 2012 was the first.
Dan Klyn: So the ninth annual World Information Architecture Day. And, so I'm eager to ask each of these fine people/volunteers/community organizers about the world of World IA Day. But first, why don't each of you introduce yourself. Grace, why don't you go first? Who are you and how did you come to be a World IA day organizer?
Grace Lau: Hi everyone. My name is Grace Lau and I got first got involved with world IA day back in 2015, actually. I had met a fellow LA person who went to the IA Summit and we were like, “Hey, let's bring a little bit of what we learned from the IA summit back to LA as part of World IA day.”
And so the next year we did 2016 in LA. And ever since then I've been doing World IA day in that area. So whether it was as a sponsorship director or as a local organizer. And then, more recently, I was the global executive producer and now kind of interim president of World IA Day. So it has been quite a journey for me.
Dan Klyn: And, when you first started doing this, what did information architecture mean to you? What was, of all the things that you're interested in, in the ways that you work...I'm going to just guess that not everybody that you know even knows what information architecture is or that it's something that they would spend countless hours of their time trying to be more of a thing in the world.
So, do you remember back when you got involved, what you were thinking about it was, why you were attracted to it?
Grace Lau: So for me, I was first attracted to it because I was in a library science program back in the mid 2000s.
Dan Klyn: And where was this program?
Grace Lau: It's at UCLA at the Information Studies program. And I had studied under Chris Chandler and Lynn Boyden and so they were my professors at the time. And it was, there was an actual, like IA class that was probably for the Mission Studies program. And so in that area…They were actually hiring IAs at the time at Disney. And so I was there for a good five, six, seven years doing work.
So by the time I had met up with Weston, who organized 2015’s World IA Day, there was already, you know, a big group of IA team over at Disney. But it was also just around the time when we started changing. In LA, there was more of a trend of interaction designers and then it also changed to product design. So, like it kind of progressed, right. Of course the work that we did, it wasn't really solely IA work. It was more like we’re prototyping, we’re doing interaction design or just doing user flows. We're not really doing IA type things where you're defining navigation and trying to figure out the content strategy of things.
And so it was interesting. So at that time, you know, going to the IA summit was kind of where you find your tribe of people where we were more focused on the content and how things connected. So in LA, there was nothing of that sort there. I mean, sure, we had World IA Day in the previous years but, for some reason, 2015 we kind of lapsed, right.
Yeah. I think that was one of the years when...Oh, it was Laura Federoff. She had gone off to be the global executive producer before. So it's kind of funny, like how we're getting more of these more active people coming from LA, leading these things.
Dan Klyn: And that maybe your volunteerism is propelled in some way by the world losing interest in information architecture, at least what the cool kids are talking about in the field.
Grace Lau: Yeah. Because right now, I mean, user experience, product design, it's become more of a flashy term and people are still very focused on the visual. And so, it does. It feels as if there's not as enough focus on the things below it, beneath it, the thing that's supposed to keep it all together and make sense. So it was more like, how can we bring it back and how can we make sure that, you know, people aren't just focusing on the pretty, on the lips and kind of makeup,
Dan Klyn: Thank you. And that reminds me to remember how grateful I am to you for all the service that you've given to World IA Day, Grace. But also to Chris and Lynn and the idea that people who are teachers, people who are mentoring can have that potentially huge impact on whether the field keeps going and there's still opportunities for people to, to know about something. I love it that a person-level intervention in your life had that much impact.
How about, how about you, Amy? Do you remember when you first got involved with World IA Day? What information architecture meant to you and, what it meant in Tampa?
Amy Espinosa: Well, Tampa is definitely a much smaller community where information architecture is still not very well known. Despite the last five years, we have held it here. This will be the first year in five years that it hasn't happened. But I was attracted to information architecture or World Information Architecture Day because I had a passion to spread awareness here because there was such a deficit. At the time I was working, or I had just quit my corporate job, and was pretty tired of going to these networking events trying to explain what information architecture is. So I just brought World IA Day here and I was so excited to get the invitation to actually join and have the first...
Dan Klyn: How did you, but how did you know about it? It’s the origin story, right? There's two people who know about it and then they spread it to some people. And then...But where did you get it from? How did you receive it?
Amy Espinosa: Well, I believe it was through the work of Laura Federoff, as well. She was the global executive producer. I was a member of the information architecture Institute and the email came in my inbox.
Dan Klyn: Yeah.
Amy Espinosa: Okay.
Dan Klyn: But why were you a member of the IA Institute? I mean, given that - and I'm being a little cute here - but given what Grace said about in her community, it wasn't, it didn't have all that much visibility. These two activists made sure some people knew about it. How did you come to - if Tampa wasn't really a hotbed for UX and IA and stuff like that? How did you get to IA? It sounds like I understand now how you got to world IA Day, but just.
Amy Espinosa: Yeah. Well, so I started my career as a visual designer in ‘98/99 that knew how to code. And so I was put into a position to code a lot of the front end and also follow through with the design. I didn't really understand even what user experience design was at the time. And information architecture was beyond me. So, through that path, is when I started digging to learn about others like me and, or you know, about this world. And that's kind of how I was led to the information architecture Institute where I joined and because of their mentorship program...So that was really the first trigger, to coming into the information architecture world and understanding, “Hey there, this is a thing.”
And so from there I just really was self-taught because we don't have any programs here in our universities that would teach the same way I understand information architecture. And so it was really just a matter of exploring, and learning, and applying it to the UX work that I was doing at the time.
So, that was kind of my path to information architecture. And once I understood how important it was and where it fit in then that's when I knew.
It's not just about design. It's also about the underlying structure that makes these places easy to use and understandable. and so that's when I kind of was like, “okay, I'm leaving UX behind, going full force into information architecture.” And here I am.
Dan Klyn: And here you are. It sounds like it was, to you even though you didn't have a degree or a background like for someone like me, being a white dude with a library science degree circa 1999, like that was a path that was blazed and it was pretty easy for me.
But did you feel welcomed? Did you feel like IA was something that you were being invited into? ‘Cause the community means enough to some of us where we spend our time volunteering for it. And so I'm curious if part of why either of you got involved was because it was more welcoming than other places. Or welcoming at all.
Amy Espinosa: Yeah. I think, for me, that was exactly it. I went to the IA Summit for the first time in 2013 when it was in Baltimore and was just so excited that people were so open, and unapproachable, and willing to share knowledge. And I think that's kind of when my love affair really began with the community and finding mentors who were willing to teach me. Because I don't have a degree, and I have an Associates in science actually, So I'm very self-taught, which is a bit different than Grace.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. Grace, how about you? And maybe set aside how gigantically outsized the welcome is from people like Lynn and Chris. How about the field or the broader community? How did that look to you when you became a member of it? And, I'm curious. And I'm asking both of you this ‘cause I'm curious about where we've come, where we are now...What's changed, if anything's changed?
Grace Lau: I would say it was definitely very opening, very welcoming and people were very welcome to like, you know, include others into things.
My first IA Summit was in 2007 in Los Angeles. No - Las Vegas. Sorry. I remember it was very, very awesome because I carried my books, my polar bear book. And also Jesse James Garret's Elements of IA book and user experience book. And then we were just going around. It's like we're very starstruck.
You know, they're like actually seeing authors, you know, in the same space. And they were all very, you know, were open to talk to you and answer questions. And, for me, just...It was very awesome because we could see and meet people that you had heard about or even just read about in, you know, the SIG IA mailing lists.
So it was very fun. You know, people were just talking and sharing ideas. Even if you were just a student. I was just a student at the time, people were still very willing and open to talking to you and sharing their experiences. So, for me, it was definitely something that was easy to get into, open.
And people were very open to explaining what they did. And just to help share, like what does an IA do and what are some things that I didn’t know were included or they did during a typical day. So, that for me, was variable planning. Because I wasn't sure exactly where I was going. I had, I was just in library school. I wasn't sure if I was going to be a librarian or whatever it was that I was fighting. It was just wherever it went, I flowed. And then I just went.
Dan Klyn: That's great. And, and does it feel different now? It seems like it would cause we're all different, but, what's it feel like now?
You touch more people out there who are interested in IA then than almost any of us ever would through World IA Day. So I'm curious, what's the finger in the wind, local organizers of this event?
Grace Lau: I still hope that it feels the same way ‘cause I know at least here in LA, it's more of like, people don't know what information architecture is.
And so it's still more like, “oh, but this is a very fundamental idea. So, let's share, let's talk about what that means.” Like, how do you organize your kitchen? Let me tell you about how I do that. And then that way people can more relate to what it is and then they could start seeing that the knobs and gears turn into, Oh, that's what it is.
I did it already. I didn't know there was a name for it. And so that was kind of like that beginning. Things like sharing this little small story like that can start sharing and spreading what IA is to people.
Amy Espinosa: I think I've seen, a lot of, enthusiasm for bringing a World IA Day to the locations. Which is good to see because, you know, Grace and I both started like being there, so we realize how it feels to be a new organizer.
And there's still a lot of the same, you know, excitement and emotion when you're starting. So I think that's a positive sign that IA is still growing. and we have had a lot o last minute, applications come forward. So there still seems to be interest, even when there's only like a month to plan.
So I think, to answer your question, Dan, the welcoming feel is still there. I think... I do believe that World IA day helps a great deal with that. And also, keeping that momentum going in the world.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. I, that's my sense too, but I want it to be that. And so my cognitive biases are pretty strong. Not, not that yours aren't. But again, you all are talking to a whole lot of people all around the world who - they're giving to this. When it comes to thinking about the people who are taking from this, has that changed? When you think about the different years of World IA Day or the way that each of you have progressed in your careers, when you've got the thing, you can help people with it. Has the, what they take from it, whatever it is. Is that changing as you keep, keeping on in this field, either of -
Grace Lau: I don't think it has changed too much. From what it seems, as the numbers across the various locations are still very open, students who are new to IA or transitioning into the field type, are the demographics that are attending the events.
But that's just a feeling, and we don't have any exact numbers. But I mean, that's the sense that I get, is there, we're still very new and student-heavy attendees.
Dan Klyn: How about Grace at your work or with a client. Things that you work on. When people, to the extent that people come to you or whatever...Has the ask changed? Like, did it used to be, people would say, “we have to do the navigation now so Grace come help us.” Has the nature of what you are asked to do as somebody known to be an expert in this changed?
Grace Lau: Not so much. At my workplace, you're still seeing the word IA. They do, let's have the IA do the IA, or, or like, “oh let’s IA this.”
It's kind of become a verb as well too. It's kinda weird. But I don't think it has changed too much because it really depends on the company and, of course, their level of maturity. Most of the time, we're still very focused on the product, so it's more product focused now than ever before. And IA is more one of the things that kind of helps support things, so not very often. There's not a lot of focus on that. But, of course, over time when people start seeing that, “Oh yeah, there are medical specialties and there are other things in other words that we use, and they're different all across the different systems.” They're like, “oh yeah.” That's when. They realize that, oh, we need an IA, or we need a taxonomy.
And that's when we say, “oh yeah, let's actually spend some time on it.” But then it really depends on the business.
Dan Klyn: So it sounds like it's the fundamentals are the thing that people need from it and from you over time still. How about Amy? How about in the ways you've been operating in your worlds is what people want from your IA bucket different.
Amy Espinosa: Yes it is, actually. And, one of the reasons, I believe, is because I've kind of been focused more in the physical world than in the digital world for the last couple of years. Another one of my volunteer positions is on a transportation committee. And I have been engaging our local metropolitan members of our local metropolitan planning organization, which basically is the government entity that handles transportation in our County. And they have actually been seeing the importance of information architecture as a way to communicate very complicated information to the public. So, that's a good win, I think, for our field. Another area where I've seen interest that may not be common everywhere is with urban planning and architects. So, I think there is definitely room to expand into areas that are not so digitally associated. I mean, obviously there's going to be some crossroads but local governments I think need more IA for sure. And, I think that's where I've seen an interesting shift here is with the awareness that, Oh, wow, this can really help us.
Dan Klyn: That's, that's encouraging. And I know from a - you and I, we talk from time to time... that a GIS (Geographic Information Systems) is part of that, at least with cities if they can be helped to think about the structure of information, the architecture of information. That GIS is something they're already doing that already has many affinities, but it's -and you may have listened in when I got to talk with Norene Wisell, who's one of the co-chairs of the IA Conference in New Orleans later this year, and somebody who's been into GIS for an IA for a long time-and that, that still seems to me like a vast, unexplored territory and it has some weird, don't see what each other are doing...Like, can't see it somehow because of the similarities. So I'm curious if that tracks with your experience and then, maybe if Grace has any follow up? I'm curious if GIS and IA touch in, in LA at all.
Amy Espinosa: I do think it has. I mean, we're not quite there yet. I think it's really a matter in, in that world of if I do a comparison to like legacy enterprise software that is really difficult to change versus like government policies and project. Yeah. Like the GIS world still is heavily dovetailed into policies and decisions made there. So I think that that's why it's a little bit slower moving. and why it may not be jelling as quick.
But I did hear and read an article about Wurman dots being introduced to ArcGIS that I think that's a really amazing start as well.
Dan Klyn: Yeah, let's, we'll put a, how do the kids say it? Put a pin in that. Let's, let's talk about Wurman Dots in a minute. But Grace, how about in LA? Do GIS and IA and government, are you seeing any confluences there?
Any opportunities there?
Grace Lau: Some definitely. So the company that produces ArcGIS is in Redlands, here in LA. It's called Esri and they are huge. They have huge conferences every year for their users, their product users. And I haven't had a chance to go there, but the stuff they produced online, on LinkedIn has been phenomenal. Like, the being able to have story maps and bring stories into the information that they're showing on the maps and then just showing. I think that has been a very cool way that they've enabled people, normal people to be able to use information and share it in special ways.
So, I think it's definitely something that's more interesting. However, I haven't seen too much of a, of a cross between bringing more UX people into understanding what GIS is and ensuring that sort of. I know that there's a huge project out there. It's called Design for the Homeless Project, where different groups of people have gone out to their communities all over the world and also try to understand the problem of homelessness, right. And, there, yeah. I think, believe it's part of the UX STRAT, think Paul Brands Is his name. So yeah, he was, he's the lead on that project. But it'll be interesting to see the work that he's doing, the research, as well as how it overlaps with the homelessness, and the maps, and the special things, and just understanding of all of that could get together that is coming. That would be really interesting to do both. Of course, we haven't gotten there yet. It's all about ideas of course. And time to do it.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. I can help you connect with the people at Esri because of our mutual friend, Mr. Warman - and I'm, fascinated by how much impact he continues to have as an eighty-four-and-a-half-year-old agitator. Yes. And so, Wurman Dots. Esri’s further embrace of what we all would recognize as information architectural ideas. A lot of that, if not all of that, is based on Esri’s owner and Richard Saul Wurman being really close friends. They love each other, in embarrassingly sweet ways when you see them interact with each other.
So, so talking again about the impact that individual people have, throughout the entire life stage, whether it's Lynn and Chris in their...I dunno. Chris was probably in his thirties when he was teaching there at UCLA. I would hesitate to guess, Lynn looked so young that I have no idea how old she is actually. but then you, as a youngster; me and Amy as olds and gen X; M.r Worman as a, you know, boomer; there's a lot of different generational layers in this thing. And it sounds like from how you described it, Grace. I'm curious what Amy's take on this is, that World IA Day has more of a student, younger people. Like, like who's being brought in that that World IA Day is more about that younger layer than the other layers. Is that accurate or...
Grace Lau: It really depends on who's organizing. So, If there is like a student group behind the local events then yeah, it definitely tends to be on the younger side.
But it also depends on the people who are trying to grow because I know that here in LA we tried to bring in student groups to be more involved, right. I think in the beginning, in 2012, the first World IA Day in LA was actually hosted at UCLA. And so it was more on that. And that in Ann Arbor it was also in the University of Michigan.
So it really depends on the people who are organizing it. Like, what kind of, I guess, attendees are showing up. At the same time, though, World IA Day tends to be a very free or low cost event, right? And so we are trying to be more inclusive. It is not supposed to be like one of those big giant conferences where you have 300-plus people and it costs like five, $600 to attend. It really is supposed to be like a small gathering. We chill, we chat, we talk about things. Just to make it low barrier. Yeah.
Dan Klyn: Okay.
Grace Lau: So that helps bring students together and people who are learning about it.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. No, that makes sense. How about Amy from, from what you've seen, is there a generational pattern to how World IA Day works, that it depends on or that it reinforces or benefits from?
Amy Espinosa: You know, for me, I think it might be a little bit harder to answer that question. I haven't been as close to it over the last couple of years as I hoped. You know, I could speak from a local level. Students are our minority. We usually try to attract people from all from different industries. In particular, so that we can spread awareness, not just in design but also in other places where we feel information architecture should be known. I don't think that we have a solid way to get the demographics from World AI Day because, you know, we definitely want to respect privacy and things of that nature. But we are working to have a little better understanding of what the level is.
But, to Grace's point, we do have a lot of universities and there is a lot of interest in World IA Day being held in conjunction with universities so that we can spread awareness that way. And this isn't just in the United States. It's also, we have locations in Canada and also Poland, as well, that have universities that are interested. So I think it’s an addition.
Dan Klyn: And so, in addition, the other side of that then; businesses as the context for World IA Day. Or a multi-year...like I get to go to a, (poor me) I get to go to Zurich for their fifth, or however many they've been doing now. And that one is going to be in a university building but I don't know that the organizers are affiliated with universities.
So who are the other, what other kinds of contexts do organizers come from? There's universities, there's what, where else do you find these people?
Grace Lau: So that’s interesting. There's actually not very many IAs who organize these events. A lot of them tend to be coming from UX research or product management backgrounds. And so that's been fascinating ‘cause, as part of our event organizing application, we ask them like, what do you do as part of your day job and do you have any experience organizing events? And so they would say, “oh yeah, I'm a UX researcher. I do this, do this.” Or, “I heard about it from this. I want to bring more work to my community.”
And so we have a small little survey and information that way about the people who are behind the events. And so for the most part, it's been fascinating. Actually many IAs, or people who are calling themselves IAs, are few.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. I hesitated there. I was about to say, that's awesome. But, I don't know. Is that awesome, Amy? Is that awesome that the people who are elbow grease, fueling this, that not everyone, or even most of them are identifying as information architects?
Amy Espinosa: Well, I think...First I take it down to the level of a person and any person who is willing to step up and organize World IA Day today gets mad props from me because it's not easy and it does take a lot of dedication and love to do it.
So. I think what's important, though, isn't really their background. I could barely explain information architecture when I first started and I know a lot more now than I did back then. But it's just the intent of bringing information architecture content together on this day to celebrate and bring awareness to it. So I think as long as that element still exists, then that's good.
Grace Lau: Yeah. Yeah. And at the same time, what I want to add, that IA is something that transcends a title. Right. so there are, of course, right now it seems very focused on, it's a UX related field where people are using IA as part of their work.
And so that's why we're seeing a lot more people in the UX field who are doing the events. But it will be interesting, you know, to actually see more like maybe we'll have an urban planner who wants to do World IA Dau that will be pretty awesome, but we have yet to see that kind of transition yet.
Amy Espinosa: I'm working on that.
Dan Klyn: Well, that is something that I, too, am interested in. Mmm. Maybe even to the point of wondering if...So Grace, you and I, and Chris, and Lynn. There's some of us who come at this from a library and information science point of view. it seems like that was a time-boxed phenomenon now, at least now that now that so much time has elapsed.
And so thinking about the, if it has a home in an academic discipline, those three or four polar bear books (fourth one making the pattern wiggle a bit). But at least the first three being from Peter Morville and Lou Rosenfeld, from within the community of library and information science, at least initially.
I am excited about bringing people from architecture and urban planning into World IA Day. In part, because I think it makes more sense for information architecture to be part of the academic world of architecture. And this is based on seeing zero interest in that world, so far in whatever it is that we're doing.
So it isn't anticipating being wanted. It's more my overexposure to the part of the history of this field. Now that does come from architecture with all the focus that I've applied to the work of Richard Saul Wurman. And so I'm curious. What you all think of the academic home of information architecture now, if it has one? And then, if you were given a magic wand and could rehome it somewhere, is there a place that it would fit better?
Grace Lau: You would have to change the name.
Dan Klyn: Say more.
Grace Lau: I think there's been lots of, when, when people hear, oh, what is information architecture? They get caught up in the words. What does it, what does architecture mean? And what does information mean? You break it down that way. And so when they say, “oh, architecture. Then are you part of architecture?” Like what does that mean? If you both would associate with, you know, structure, and information is, you know, more of another fuzzy concept.
Yeah. so. Finding a home for it is kind of weird because you try to be as vague as you can by calling it information. but then you have things like, okay, what is data science? And there is another possible home. That or other parents that we could find ourselves under. Also, you have data science and you know, you have libraries. And then information studies and cartography. Yeah. I mean, you have so many possible periods, some of the moms and dads in there, so I don't really know. I mean, it's one of those things where you have to map it with, you know, with common words. I'm not sure we are able to find that just yet. It's just so, I dunno. I dunno if information architecture just made me...that's why it's so hard to define this because it is too big or it is too, I don't -
Dan Klyn: Yeah, I don't know either. What do you think, Amy? Is it too vague or too specific and magic wand wise? If you could move it somewhere...
Amy Espinosa: I would move it into lower, like childhood education.
Dan Klyn: Ooh, say more. It feels so right, but say more.
Amy Espinosa: Well, you know, because I'm sure it's a...I don't know if it's just a US phenomenon, but we have a thing here called the Great American Teach-In, which is a day in November that parents can volunteer to go into their school into any school. You don't have to be a parent- you can be anybody - to talk to kids about your profession. And my kids, I have two sons. I have gone in there on many occasions, despite them not wanting me to, to explain information architecture.
The most difficult one was two kindergartners. And you know, I think the reason why I place it there is because I think it's a fundamental skill that everybody should be aware of. I don't, and I think that the more we understand what it is and what we're doing with it at that basic level then the more we can understand and essentially make the change we want in the world, as a result of that.
but I do think that it's important for not just people to work as information architects, but for people just to understand in general, like they do.
Amy Espinosa: They do English or science, you know, just a basic understanding of the importance of organizing information in a way that makes sense. I mean, think about how wonderful life would be.
Dan Klyn: But, devil's advocate wise, wouldn't - Grant Carmichael joined us on the call here. Grant is involved in a chapter of the AIGA here in Grand Rapids that did a teach-in, has done teach-ins with the schools, bringing design thinking to young children. I don't think down to kindergarten, maybe it third grade was the early tier? But, I'm curious, would design thinking do what the IA thing, when you imagine that for kindergartners, isn't that the same? Like what, what wouldn't you get. Because people know about design thinking. People talk about it all the time.
Amy Espinosa: They do. But I guess it would just depend on how it's, you know, taught or implemented. I mean, you know, your version of design thinking maybe a little different. I don't...I'm not an expert in that. I haven't read anything in design thinking, to be honest. I think I might've attended one session about it. But, you know, if information arch...Like the difference in thinking. One is thinking, one is actually doing maybe, or like structuring. Like, maybe it's still centered around strategy. I'm not sure, I'm failing at answering this.
Dan Klyn: It's so weird. And, uh, my intent is divisive, somewhat. Kinda of an impure impulse under my question.
Grace, do you want to do anything with my asshole question about why design thinking wouldn't give kids the thing that they would get through what Amy's proposing by bringing IA into kindergarten?
Grace Lau: I think it would be an interesting combination of bringing what IA thinking skills into what we are considering design thinking, right? Because, from my understanding, the beginning of any design thinking exercise is for you to break down the steps. Like, for instance, how do you make toast is a very popular like starter exercise to think about what design thinking is. But, if you look at it that way, you're already making participants, or students, or kids think about people, think about how you lay that out. Is it like when you get up in the morning or is it drying toast or is it making a toast? That whole exercise itself is already making you, trying to structure your timeline and, also,the words are being used. How are things defined? So I think, Wurman here had also very good, all is it's bringing a more softer focus, right?
Dan Klyn: Yeah. And how it relates to the world. Like what does, what does this do relationally for how we relate, or how a kindergartener relates to the world of experience.
Grace Lau: Yeah. One of the fun exercises I've done here in LA is I would do a half-day workshop. A workshop called The UX of Dim Sum.
So, of course, it's around food because that's how people relate to the world, right. If you don't know what dim sum Is, it's like a very niche Hong Kong/Chinese brunch type of thing. And you have a huge table. You have these people pushing carts, these artistes pushing carts with various things and fluid in them, and you have no idea what's inside these steamer baskets. And so you kind of have to force people to open up as well. What's this thing? And you have no idea what it looks like. And, because it's been fried and steamed beyond recognition. So you have things you open, you have to force us to look at things. Of course, if you have allergies, you really don't know and you have this whole language barrier.
But you know that aside, it's really forcing people to...Like how would you structure that conversation of like ordering food? Because it's how I understand it. Or maybe, you know, making people think about how information is organized to be presented to other people. Right? I don't know. For me, it was just an exercise in having people understand what possibly is IA without saying the word IA because it's how people relate to, you know, constructs.
Dan Klyn: I love that. food everybody has a relationship with it.
Amy Espinosa: Yeah. And the question that always pops into my mind about defining it versus not, is, you know, we're just really calling it what it is. Are we not? You know, that is information architects are, that's what we're doing.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. I'm, I'm torn. there's the story that Richard tells about choosing to call it that for at least two reasons. One reason being in 1976, design outside of a narrow niche of practitioners, the walking around sense of design was Elizabeth Arden. If you're old, if you're an old like me, that, that name, that's like a glamour, it's like a prestige luxury brand.
And, and so he didn't want it to be mistaken for what things look like.
But then the second piece, which is maybe a harder teaching to do unless you're Richard Saul Wurman, is because it doesn't have...If you say information architect nobody knows what that means. And he thought that that was good. That it, it creates the need to connect with somebody, in a particular way.
If you've interacted with him at all, niceties and small talk can get really prickly with him because he doesn't do that well. Or, he has a different idea about the value of communication. And so calling it information architecture for him, a) to preempt a mistakenly thinking it's about what it looks like, but then maybe more importantly, B) because you want an opportunity to talk with somebody about what it is.
And, that's, that-your mileage may vary if that's what has to happen every time. A particular conversation with a particular person about some particular way that they would understand it for who they are and where they are. Some of us who sell this want a blanket way to just like, no, this is what it is.
You smear that cross the awareness of the world and then what's hard, what don't you understand? It's information architecture. so that's, I don't know if I can, if you can do anything with that, either of you.
Amy Espinosa: I do have. I do love the dim sum concept.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. Grant says, “in the current parlance, perhaps we want to propagate the mindset of information shippers.” And, initially, I thought of always be shipping from a software delivery standpoint. That doesn't sound good but I think he's using the sense of shipping as, like, when you love Star Wars and you want Kylo and somebody to get together that, you, as the fan, are shipping relationships to get...Yeah. Okay. So that's what Grant meant by that. Yeah. We help create, we connect information with, the [University of Michigan] School of Information has a pretty great tagline, which is “connecting people with information using technology.”
Amy Espinosa: That is a good tagline
Dan Klyn: Connecting people with information through structure. Maybe that's a...
Amy Espinosa: You know, I do think information architecture isn't as important to have in universities. And, you know, one of the universities that's close to me, unfortunately, they say that they have an information architecture program, but it's really focused on big data and data science.
Dan Klyn: Yeah so what Grace said about are there other disciplines? There is a data structur-y thing.
Amy Espinosa: And then, but you know, just the joining of forces even, because we also have a really, it seems like a decent level school for architecture and design, too. So it's like the collaboration between those two schools could be amazing are...Can I ask you a question, back on that topic?
You know, do you see in the academic world, cause that's not a world that I'm very familiar with, do you see like that opportunity or even that cross-collaboration might happen? Cause I think that when we talk about expanding our discipline in our profession, then that's kinda key, as well.
Dan Klyn: Yeah I have. I have a really limited exposure to it. Through teaching one course in one master's program in the, you could say the traditional academic home of information architecture, since Marville and Rosenfeld went to the University of Michigan. And then through connections with people like Andrea Suarez Meaney who brought out provisionally a program, a Master's degree in information architecture. And then based on ,they gave it not a whole lot of runway and they aren't continuing on with that program, up in Sweden. in France, there used to be a Master in Information Architecture In Leone at the university there. Mostly connected with one professor who had a passion for it and he retired. And so it seems like it's pretty brittle. It connects back with the passion of the role of individual people in having their love of it be enough to make something manifest around them.
It seems like that continues to be the way that it exists academically is individuals are making it be a thing. But as a discipline, as a, yeah, I'm not seeing how that is happening and there's a lot of funny things happening in higher ed generally. Which may be part of this. For example, at the University of Michigan, the School of Art and Design has changed its curriculum so that it no longer has individual courses and things like typography or graphic design. They now just have design one and two your first year and design three and four your second year. And so a specialization seems to not be, at least in some quarters in academia, specialization means an over narrowing. Back to Ronan's comment about is there a broader way to talk about how this connects with people, a school of information.
That's great. That makes sense but information architecture as a thing in the academic world, right now it depends on individual instructors and graduate students and, folks like us.
Grace Lau: Yeah I would say there is a need for us to package IA in other things. For instance, like if we can package IA in terms of GIS, then we could be able to ship it, you know. If we could package IAs part of, you know, cataloging and stuff like that, then we can ship it. Or we can package IA in terms of “oh yeah, here’s things that we can do in data science” then we can ship it because people understand it in terms of what they use it in. And then they see the need. Also similar to how they can package design thinking in a workshop, right? And then bring it, I feel like there needs to be something that we can do to bring it more all along that way. It's our marketing.
Dan Klyn: Yes.
Grace Lau: It's not really making a connection to the different various industries. Yeah, I mean, if we say, oh, let's apply it to. The department of transportation, let's build a better subway system, right? People aren't gonna think, yeah, let's, we need to bring IA into this. No. They say “oh, we need to help people understand the subway maps more.” And then there's this really cool one out there where you can see how the different subway maps are built based on the speed or maybe how the types of tubes are being used. I mean, I think there's things that we can do around it that would allow us to bring it more to life, more formidable.
And I think we're kind of missing that. and I think it's also like, it's no longer...I look at, in recent years, in the past 20 years, it's been very focused on a digital aspect. And so it makes it less tangible and intangible because of that. And so if we can bring it to more the physical, like, you know, bring it back to the roots, even like, how do you organize a library? Or how do you organize a city. Then maybe it would make it more understandable
Dan Klyn: Yeah. The opportunity for embodiment to be part of how we make it make sense to people. Ronan, in the comments, has noted that. And that's, I think, a really rich seemingly underexplored domain for information architecture, is to ladder off of the work of people like, Andrew Hinton and Marcia Havarti in talking about making things understandable to the entire person and the body they use to interact with the environment. I think we can.
We don't have to throw any other disciplines or ourselves under the bus by pointing out that the ways that this technology and people and information have interacted so far, has been a lot more along the model of a brain in a jar than of a 1 million sensors in a magnificent sensing organ that, is always moving in space.
Who doesn't want that second thing? And none of us are that first thing. So, as a polemic at least, I think, helping connect, if an organization doesn't have information architecture. They’re already prospering. In some ways, they are already, homeostasis is not seemingly an issue. So why did, why is this even a thing? Why do we need it? Perhaps it's a pointing to the evolution of the way that people and information and then technology interact and saying, we left our bodies behind in the first couple of revs. We need to bring our bodies back. But is that a big stretch to say IA are the visceral understanding people. Cause if our wellspring is from an information science, that's a, that's brain in a jar land. That's Claude Shannon. That's, I don't know what I'm asking here.
Amy Espinosa: [laughs] Yeah. I like the, not the brain in the jar. I think especially when, you know, we are moving into a world. that's going to be more cross channel than ever. You know, the physical and the digital are going to convert. Well, they're already, but it'll become more important. And I think the natural search patterns also that Marcia Bates has been preaching for years. You know, there, all that stuff I think is on the verge of coming back because of the technology that's on the way. So. I think that it will become more embodied. Is that the right word?
Dan Klyn: Yeah. I mean, it's, it works for me.
Amy Espinosa: It should anyway. Yeah. But we should be thinking in those contexts.
Dan Klyn: So if people paint a picture of...I've seen that world IA day is recently reconstituted as a 501c3 nonprofit. It's looking for support. Lots of different support. Right now, there's a specific ask that's gone out for people to contribute monetarily. There are lots of ways for people to contribute in-kind and with volunteering. So, what do you, what does world IA Day need going forward in order to, thrive and survive?
Grace Lau: We need people. I think the biggest ask is right. I mean, besides, you know, the monetary backing to keep the institution afloat in terms of overhead stuff, right? It really needs people, people who are passionate about spreading knowledge or, you know, bringing people together and mentoring.
Right? Because, like we said in the early beginning, the best way to reach people is on a personal level, right? And so by bringing that to mentorship, you know, bringing more awareness to others, if we don't have that personal one-on-one relationship, it's really hard to keep it alive because the more we share, the more “oh, people are hearing our understanding around what world IA day is.” Also what IA is the discipline, the brain in a jar. At the same time, the more ways that we can bring it out the brain outside of the jar, as well, too. So hopefully we can bring it to other industries. And how's it? Can we, should we share these things?
Let's talk about what it means to design that map or design experience, right? Like what information do people like want and things like that.
Amy Espinosa: And, and just to tag on to that a little...
The one thing that world IA day does is it brings people together but also it's knowledge sharing. It's sharing information. So when you think about it, it's not just in the context of the audience because you know, these organizers spend eight, sometimes up to eight months preparing for this day and giving this great experience to their attendees. But it's also on the team level, too, because there's a lot of learning there that helps you grow and, you know, just having that passion to really believe in a mission. Snd, what world IA day is, and what it does, is great.
I am excited that there's so many people who do believe. But yeah, I think we are looking to have a more official structure for bringing people to the legal entity that we now are responsible for.
One of the only reasons why we did that was because we needed to get money out of the IA Institute per the bylaws. So. It's not, you know, it's a different philosophy. We're not looking to create a model where it's like top-down. We're really wanting to keep with our driving principles of grass-root organizing.
So, we're looking for people who are interested in volunteering at the local level, people who are attending, and then people who are willing to come up and help and make this thing even bigger and more successful than it already is.
Dan Klyn: How many, how many locations are there presently for 2020,
Grace Lau: 56.
Dan Klyn: Wow. And what's the minimal viable?
So if, somebody listening to this recording, after, you know, forward from today. Let's say two months from now, this is on a podcast and somebody hears about World IA Day and about being an individual, the power that individuals have to make this thing go, they're like, maybe I could be one of those. What's the minimal viable World IA Day celebration look like? What's the smallest one?
Grace Lau: Three people in a room.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. is that really one of the ways you can do this is like three people in a room. Okay.
Grace Lau: Yeah. You bring three people. I think actually happened. Three people in the room in Utah a couple of years ago, called Lake City, had an event at somebody’s house.
Dan Klyn: I believe that was Wesley Owen, and thank God for Wesley. Yeah. Cool. So, so there, there should be no barrier to making one of these things be a thing that, yeah...
Grace Lau: We’re just trying to make it as easy to do as possible. Some locations like to go all out and plan really large events with 300 people plus and lots of sponsors and that sort of thing. But it doesn't have to be that way, right? I mean, it's great if you do have the resources and the people to help you bring that kind of event together but, at the core of it, you're really are. The success metric is, you know, a couple of people together talking about IA and having a good time.
Right. Whether it includes food or no food, coffee or no coffee.
Dan Klyn: Yeah, I vote for coffee for what it's worth.
How about, what's the other? So if three people in a room and having a good time...I like that as a minimal requirement. What's the, how big do these things get from an institutional memory standpoint? Do you all recall, among the larger events, what does a larger one look like? How many people is that?
Amy Espinosa: Let's say 300. Yeah. And that's more conference style. Those are usually in larger cities. I know Boston has usually between two and 300 each year. I'm not sure what Chicago, ha's
Grace Lau: LA IA is little close.
Amy Espinosa: LA's probably up there over a hundred. Yeah. Between 50 and a hundred.
Grace Lau: Yeah. LA used to be a little bit smaller because of the, we're unable to find venues that are that much bigger. I would say, I'll say Pittsburgh.
Amy Espinosa: Oh yeah. Pittsburgh is big.
Grace Lau: Houston is also one of the larger ones, too.
Dan Klyn: Then there's going to be a Dallas Fortworth this year I saw, which is very exciting. Anybody who wants to pick a cool place to go for World IA Day this year. If you've not been to Dallas and Fortworth, terrific cities to visit from an architecture standpoint let alone know information architecture.
Grace Lau: One thing that we haven't done, but I believe its been done in Hong Kong, is the walking tour. Or was that in Tampa?
Dan Klyn: There was one in Tampa and I think others have done that. I think maybe Andrew Hinton has done a context walk.
Grace Lau: So you don't have to be in a room. It could be three people walking in the street.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. That's terrific. Well what I know both of you have life partners that you live with and children. Or Grace, I don't know if you have kids or not, but I know Amy does. What do your families make of, what this all is? Have you learned anything about what this is from how your families have come to understand what it is that you do and talk about?
Amy Espinosa: Well, my family is filled with a bunch of jokesters. And so they're constantly making fun of me, saying, “Oh, that's bad IA.” You know, like, you know, the Understanding, Understanding book too, so they'll, they'll throw that at me sometimes like, “oh, mom, it's just understanding, understanding, you know.”
Well in that context, you know, it's really kind of fun, that at least it's in their vernacular. My boys, I've taught them LATCH. I quizzed them, frequently. I know that it's easy for kids, so I know not everybody gets it, that kind of ecology so I think, you know, that in itself has been good. But, you know, the amount of time I've volunteered, that's always a touchy subject.
Dan Klyn: Information architecture is something that takes you away
Amy Espinosa: Sometimes, but it also brings us together.
Grace Lau: I bring my son to all of our UX events, and so he's kind of like a little miniature mascot. For him it's, he's also a jokester too. And we are more on the cautious side, like how we label these things.
We used to have an Airbnb where, you know, of course when you'll go to any home there's no label or anything. And so we label everything. And so we bring it to different parts of the work. So my husband knows, he understands what I do. He, he appreciates what it's useful.
Yeah. Well, of course, we can't have labels everywhere.
Dan Klyn: I wonder if either of you have the experience of...I'm certain that my wife is better at applying good information architectural principles to how she does life than I am. Have you, is that true for either of you? That you have a spouse who's actually a more powerful practitioner of this than you are? Maybe unwittingly?
Amy Espinosa: I would say with communication, yes. My husband is very short and to the point
Grace Lau: Short to the point. Yeah.
Dan Klyn: Making the complex clear. Making the complex curt [laughs].
Amy Espinosa: That, yes. That's, yeah. I would agree with that.
Dan Klyn: Oh that’s great. Well, please convey my gratitude and the gratitude of the community to your families for the profound contribution.
It would be obscene if you counted the hours, and I hope neither of you are. I have a sense of how many would be in a column on the spreadsheet, if you did. It's, it's a lot. So thank you both for everything that you do to make, to continue to be a thing. So we've talked about getting people, finding people who want to be a part of this. Is there a URL for a financial donation? If somebody wanted to give 50 bucks to World IA Day, is that something that's easy to do?
Amy Espinosa: Yeah, I'll come to that then. Yeah, we prefer donations. If anybody is willing, we appreciate them as always. Just to donate through PayPal. and you can just find a World IA Day on PayPal. And because the fee is a lot lower, we also have an Open Collective page. I don't have the URL off the top of my head.
Dan Klyn: I'll put it in the show notes. I’m fast forwarding getting this one out ASAP.
Amy Espinosa: Yeah. That one does take a little bit more, but we're grateful for any contributions that people...
Grace Lau: It's opencollective.com/worldiaday
Dan Klyn: Great. Cooney, Grant Carmichael. Ronan...any of our guests have a question or a, an exhortation for, for Grace and Amy? Objections, perhaps...
Grant Carmichael: Okay. I think it's definitely important to engage kids when they're really young for what's possible with these kinds of disciplines. And, one thing that one of my daughters did when she was like five is I give her a post-it note and she ran around the house labeling everything. And it's like you just want to say, “yes, this is a direction you can go.”
So that's when I came in on those conversations are, (I was late) but, yeah...I agree that thinking about, well, what, what are ways that we can start to raise awareness about that kind of skill set? And, and because the kids are using their bodies at that age, I mean, they're, they're living in the world and it's really pure and how they're starting to make associations and, letting them know it's okay.
That thinking that way is a viable, good way to be in the world as again, it's a good thing. So thank you for raising that, Amy and Grace.
Dan Cooney: Yeah. I'd echo the same thing. That whole idea of childhood, childhood education as being one of the possible parents...Because so much of this is…
it does strike me as I'm one of those people who sort of sees us as being deeply childhood as human species and just sort of just figuring out how to do this. This abstract society living thing. And teaching or making it more evident to everyone that we're constructing some aspects of our world, our society, but it's invisible. So knowing, having tools for making it. Making those invisible structures visible, I think is critical for our society, really. And so I think we're just getting, we're just starting to name it.
And yeah, it's pretty awkward right now, so thank you for a great comment there. Thank you. Thanks to both of you for World IA Day.
Amy Espinosa: Thanks to both of you for joining today and Dan, for inviting us, as well. This is great. Really appreciate the opportunity.
Dan Klyn: Oh, Ronan's got a, a marvelous question.
“What do you passionately love about IA without defining it or explaining yourself?”
Amy Espinosa: Connection.
Dan Klyn: Yep.
Grace Lau: Keeping your sanity.
Dan Klyn: Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, may we be able to, yeah. Yeah. I know we're not supposed to explain, but man, that hits me as a really where I live. Yeah. Manage managing how to be the person that you want to be in this world, without losing it all the time. Sometimes you're going to lose it, at least if you're me but yeah.
The one that I'm focused on is warm. That there's this visceral understanding and, Richard's book that you held up Grace, anxiety being that is an embodied...Anxiety is a wake up call to our whole body. Back to the problems of the brain in the jar. And so, if anxiety is this embodied reaction to toxic exposure, to information. Toxic overexposure to information or internalizing obligations about what you're supposed to do about information that then are causing you this feeling of anxiety.
That architecture is about feelings, and so there's an architectural response that can address a physical malady that is maybe some kind of a gift, because it's coming from us, right? It's us telling us something about the world that needs to change. That's what anxiety is. Or that's one way to talk about it, or it's how I'm going to talk about it right now.
That architecture is a way to address that. And it feels warm and good. And the anxiety is, feels cold. Cold and yucky like Michigan.
What other things should we mention? We could mention that we haven't said when World IA Day is, so I believe it is on February 22. Is that right?
Grace Lau: Yes. Saturday, February, 22 2020.
Dan Klyn: And in some places, are they doing nothing on Friday? And some places they'll do...Like it wiggles a little. So, depending on where you are in the world, there might be a Friday thing as well. Or a Sunday thing.
Grace Lau: Yeah, definitely does. Reach out to the location organizers. Some of the events have their schedule figured out already by now or have an opened up registration. So if you check your nearest World IA Day events.
Amy Espinosa: And The theme.what’s the theme this year.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. We didn't talk about that yet. I'd love to know more about what you think of the theme. What is it and what does it mean?
Grace Lau: I can talk about the origins of that. It's really personal. So, Andrew Young is a huge Fifth Element fan. And so this year's theme is called the IA Element, because it's something that is, connects everything together.
And that's kind of how I understand it. Like, what is the underlying understanding of what is, and how it is bringing things together and it's understanding. I think there's a better writeup of it on the website and I can think of it.
Dan Klyn: It's molecular, it's cosmic. It's a fundamental. Articular. Dangerous.
Grace Lau: Possibly.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. Straying into dangerous territory. By way of a segue here, is there an event in Iran this year?
Grace Lau: There is an event In Saudi Arabia.
Dan Klyn: Yeah. That, that was one of the things that was interesting back in the time that I was involved with the administration of World IA Day, was advice from the lawyers that we could not provide material support to our friends in Iran who have put on World IA Day a couple of times, at least now due to the political stupidity and the United States. So, so there, there are ways to get involved with this that may cause you to become aligned differently with the policies of your governing bodies. Interesting.
Grace Lau: I think last year we might've had a night. A location in Iran but the closest we'll been in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia.
Amy Espinosa: Had a TED around...That was in Iran, right?
Grace Lau: Yep.
Amy Espinosa: I think that was...2016 might've been the last one. I find that my memory is, you know, with age not as sharp.
Dan Klyn: Well, that's why we have a website. For folks who are interested in learning about the history of World IA Day, worldiaday.org has both what you need to engage with the event this year. It also has a library of references to talks that have been given at past events. Sometimes there are embedded videos, even of talks from past World IA Day. So there's a way to find the content that has been created so far through the World IA Day community, by going to worldiaday.org which y'all should do.
Amy Espinosa: Yes. And there is a get involved link. So, if anybody is interested in volunteering, reach out. Once we close, once World IA Day happens, if you missed it this year, we will...I think it's what, June? May/June, that we open up the applications again. Grace, is that right?
Grace Lau: Yeah. Usually in June we open it up.
Dan Klyn: Great. Yeah. Well, given that all, if it's just three people is the way that you can start in with this then maybe in June we should all be banging our pots and pans together to just make sure that everybody knows. If you know two other people that want to talk about this on the same day that everybody else in the world is going to be talking about it. Cause that's...for Abby and I and the people who are on the board of the Institute when this first got going, that was part of the initial thrill is; “oh my God, it's everybody all at one once.” It's all globally happening and watching talks in Tokyo late at night, here in the Eastern Time Zone, as it goes around the world.
That's all pretty fun. So, I will certainly be in touch with you all in June to see how I can be part of the pots and pans gang to get more people involved.
Amy Espinosa: Well, thanks for being such a champion.
Dan Klyn: It is a joy to be a part of what you're making happen this year, you two. Thank you for everything that you do. And, I hope you have a terrific World IA Day. And, I'll be waving to you through the satellite link to Switzerland. And yeah, hopefully with a little bit of elbow grease, this conversation we've had will appear on the internet with a transcript and things so that other people can access it, too.
So, look for that in the near future.
Amy Espinosa: Awesome. Thanks for having us, Dan.
Dan Klyn: It is my honor and pleasure. Thank you for being here.
Amy Espinosa: And thanks to everyone else for joining.
Dan Klyn: Yeah, Ronan pointed out that the email blast I sent out promoting this had the wrong URL in it. So maybe that's why it was so lonely in here today but Twitter was right there.
So yeah. Live and learn.
Thanks everybody. See you next time.